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Poker Machine Reform

Published on: June 2023

Record: HANSARD-1323879322-131696

Poker Machine Reform

Ms FELICITY WILSON (North Shore) (15:23:47):

I move:

That this House:

(1)Calls on the Government to urgently reform poker machines in New South Wales.

(2)Commends the former Premier, Mr Dominic Perrottet, for his leadership on this issue to the last election.

(3)Notes that the Government's plan to trial pokie reform was heavily criticised by industry experts and the community, and will fail the people of New South Wales.

We live in a State with more poker machines than anywhere in the world outside of Nevada, and it has created an industry whose viability relies on revenue raised through the human misery of problem gambling. There are more than 86,000 poker machines in New South Wales. That is 30 per cent more than Victoria and Queensland combined. Areas with some of the highest losses to poker machines are also home to some of the lowest paid workers, further entrenching disadvantage while wrecking families, lives and futures. Those are the families and workers that members opposite profess to support. But their trial of 500 machines out of 86,000 is truly disappointing. Former Labor leader John Robertson, whom the Premier was chief of staff to, said prior to the election that even he could not understand Chris Minns' reluctance to support cashless gaming for poker machines. Labor's plan has been criticised by gambling reform advocates as weak and likely to fail. The Alliance for Gambling Reform chief advocate Tim Costello said:

The suburbs where poker machines do the biggest damage, where countless millions are ripped out of the local community, are in traditional Labor electorates …

The Government is turning its back on the very communities that helped get it elected. When costing Labor's policy before the election, the Parliamentary Budget Office said that restrictions only on new machines would not curb gaming losses because patrons would just move to older machines with a higher limit. What is truly astounding is that the Government has not even provided any clarity on why it is running this trial. Is it to assess the technology? Is it to assess the effectiveness of reducing money laundering in clubs and pubs? With such a small trial, what would stop money laundering and the dirty money that comes with it occurring at the club next door, or problem gamblers moving to the machines right next to the one in the trial?

We know that cashless machines have already been trialled voluntarily in our State, and that States such as Victoria have implemented carded play already, giving us the research showing that a voluntary system is likely to be ineffective in minimising the harms of problem gambling. I note that was under a Victorian Labor government. We need a plan to address those problems directly while ensuring that our pubs and clubs and all of the people who benefit from the work that they do can continue to thrive and be a force for good. Clubs can bring people together and support live music and entertainment, sport, community events and much more. The social benefits that clubs and pubs offer are especially important in regional New South Wales.

We also need to ensure that we are eliminating the scourge of dirty money in this State. In 2020‑21, $95 billion was turned over through poker machines in pubs and clubs in New South Wales, which is a truly staggering number. The NSW Crime Commission estimates that billions of those dollars are the direct proceeds of crime. Those revelations add to existing evidence detailing the harm that problem gambling causes to families and communities in New South Wales. Recent data shows the scale of the financial impact, with New South Wales residents losing $23.7 million every day. For problem gamblers, the costs are not only financial; gambling impacts their relationships and their health and wellbeing, and can even lead to people losing their lives.

Although the cash‑based nature of machines prevents law enforcement from seeing the full picture, the NSW Crime Commission's inquiry still found that money laundering is widespread and significant. I note the member for Sydney's call for papers motion and some of the incredibly concerning evidence and allegations made about the amount of information that could have been withheld from the important work that the NSW Crime Commission undertook. I find it astonishing that the Labor Government is turning its back on local communities. It is enabling crime syndicates and others to continue the practice of laundering their money through clubs and pubs. My motion commends the former Premier Dominic Perrottet not just for his leadership on this issue leading up to the last election but also for providing a comprehensive plan to deliver a once‑in‑a‑generation reform to gaming, aimed at reducing criminal money laundering and helping address problem gambling.

The former Liberal‑Nationals Government had a plan and a legislative framework to deliver those much‑needed reforms through to 2028. However, this Government has no such detailed plan. Labor members have said no to legislating a date for a full transition to cashless gaming. They have ruled it out unequivocally. Labor has said no to requiring that all new machines purchased once the rollout commences be cashless. Labor has said no to enabling player identification verification to be linked to a single bank account and no to mandating breaks in play. Labor supported only one of the eight recommendations put forward by the New South Wales Crime Commission, and I note that the former Coalition Government had committed to all eight of the recommendations.

TEMPORARY SPEAKER (Mr Clayton Barr):

The member for Wyong will come to order.

Ms FELICITY WILSON:

Labor has said no to legislating player privacy protections for all system generated data. Clearly this Government has no plan for dirty money and no commitment to protecting communities and eliminating the money laundering that is occurring within this State. I acknowledge the support of members of the crossbench in this place for the need to secure the reforms. I particularly acknowledge the member for Sydney, who is in the Chamber, and the member for Murray. They have both spoken on this issue and have had to cop a lot of flak for doing so. We have a moral obligation in this place to legislate reforms that will make a real difference to people's lives. We need to ensure we protect families and the community while cutting down on organised crime. We need to break our addiction to gambling.

Mr DAVID HARRIS (WyongMinister for Aboriginal Affairs and Treaty, Minister for Gaming and Racing, Minister for Veterans, Minister for Medical Research, and Minister for the Central Coast) (15:30:39):

— I contribute to debate on the motion. I thank the member for North Shore for bringing forward this motion on the very important public policy issue of poker machine and gaming reform in New South Wales. However, most of the contribution from the member for North Shore was some sort of made-up fantasy. She is verballing Government members in such a dishonest way, because we are about to implement exactly what she said that we are saying no to. Before you contribute to debate in Parliament, how about you actually look at what we are doing? I am happy to talk facts but I will not argue rubbish, and that is really offensive.

Ms Felicity Wilson:

Point of order: If the member would like to make an accusation about me or any member in this House, he knows that he needs to do so through a substantive motion. I ask that he withdraw.

Mr DAVID HARRIS:

To the point of order: That is not a point of order in this particular case.

Ms Felicity Wilson:

Further to the point of order: It is a point of order in this particular case.

Mr DAVID HARRIS:

Further to the point of order: I have made no imputations against the member's character.

Ms Felicity Wilson:

Further to the point of order: If the member wishes to call me dishonest in this Chamber, he needs to move that as a substantive motion.

TEMPORARY SPEAKER (Mr Clayton Barr):

The member for Wyong will direct his comments through the Chair. He has been asked to withdraw, and he can choose whether to do so.

Mr DAVID HARRIS:

I withdraw if there was some offence. But if the member for North Sydney were to read the standing orders more closely, she would understand that is not actually a thing. But let us talk about the truth. I understand that the member for North Sydney only came to this place a few years ago, but members opposite were in power for 12 years. During their time in government—these are facts—the Liberal Party and The Nationals oversaw a huge growth in gambling and betting revenue. When Labor left government in 2010‑11 it was $1.75 billion, and when the Coalition left government in 2021-22 it was $2.9 billion. Members opposite should not lecture us about gambling reform because not only did revenue from gambling and betting increase but also the Liberal-Nationals Government in New South Wales made a litany of errors instead of working constructively with all groups on sensible gaming reforms.

First, the former Government attempted a series of uncosted and untrialled changes without engaging with industry or unions about the possible impacts on their jobs. It is a basic courtesy to let people know before proposing changes that will affect their livelihoods and businesses, and Government members think workers have a right to know if their jobs will be affected. At the eleventh hour before the State election, I think because Liberal seats were under threat from the teals, the former Premier made an election promise for a mandatory cashless gaming card that was uncosted and unplanned. I know that because I asked if anyone had a copy of the plan and the answer was no—no-one had a copy of the plan. Neither the department nor the industry had seen it.

In fact, industry representatives made it quite clear that they had been totally left out of the loop. No money had been set aside to actually implement a card or to scale up the technology to make sure it worked as intended. Furthermore, there was no consideration of the possible impacts and consequences on jobs and the New South Wales economy. It may have left the State open to significant compensation claims. The people of New South Wales, especially those experiencing gambling harm and their families, deserve better than a whole lot of rhetoric. They have deserved reform for the past 12 years, but it did not happen. What arrogance from the Liberal Party and The Nationals, when they have not done anything remotely constructive on gaming reform in over 12 years. We should not commend them for that. That is why Labor members obviously oppose the motion.

In comparison, the Minns Labor Government has been in power for nine weeks but is already progressing several important gaming reforms. It has already brought to the Parliament a ban on electoral donations from clubs with poker machines and a ban on VIP signage outside gaming lounges. There is more to come, including cash limits on gaming machines and a reduction over time in the number of poker machines in this State. Government members are not talking about it; they are doing it. The Government will soon announce the make-up of the independent panel that will oversee the cashless gaming trial. Labor has a comprehensive suite of policies to address gambling-related harms and money laundering in this State—policies that in the longer term will protect individuals, families and communities but are good for workers as well. That is why the people of New South Wales voted in March this year to change the Government—they actually wanted change, not more empty promises and platitudes.

This is a really difficult, complex area. Yes, Labor members are taking a cautious approach, and things are not happening as quickly as some people want them to. But anyone who knows me knows that I am very evidence based and that I want to get things right. I do not want to move down a pathway and have some sort of crazy disaster happen that costs businesses and costs the State jobs. I want to make sure that what we do as a government is well thought out and well understood, and that it works. If Opposition members want to criticise us for doing that then I will take that criticism. But trying to score cheap political points through empty rhetoric is not the way to solve the problem or address what needs to happen. Government members want to make sure that there are protections and harm minimisation. We want to stop money laundering, but we also want to protect jobs and make sure it is done in a sensible way. I move:

That the motion be amended by omitting paragraphs (2) and (3) and inserting instead:

(2)Notes the Minns Labor Government is implementing policies for gaming reform to address harms from gambling and money laundering associated with electronic gaming machine use in New South Wales, while also protecting jobs, particularly in rural and regional New South Wales.

(3)Acknowledges the New South Wales Parliament crossbench for their constructive contribution to this important public policy area.

Mr ALEX GREENWICH (Sydney) (15:37):

At the outset, I thank the member for North Shore for bringing this motion to the House. I acknowledge that she is extremely passionate about this issue, as are members of the Government, the Opposition and the crossbench. That has been highlighted by all members. I also acknowledge the leadership of former Premier Dominic Perrottet in bringing forward what was an extremely courageous policy during an election campaign, one that the member for Lake Macquarie, the member for Wagga Wagga and I were in support of.

We are dealing with a very important and complex piece of law reform that hopefully will finally tackle the State's addiction to gambling. The member for North Shore highlighted the state of problem gambling in New South Wales, something that I know the Minister is fully aware of and seeks to address. New South Wales is the nation's capital when it comes to money laundering. We know a great deal of that is being done in clubs and pubs right across New South Wales through electronic gaming machines, and I am sure we will learn more about that in coming weeks.

The member for Wagga Wagga, the member for Lake Macquarie and I met within days of the Minister for Gaming and Racing taking up his role, and we have met with the Premier a number of times to discuss this issue. I assure all members of this House that the new Minns Labor Government is taking the issue of reforms to deal with gambling harm and money laundering extremely seriously. Ultimately, its policy will benefit from the leadership and courage of the former Premier, Dominic Perrottet, and the work he did on his policy, which was detailed and, I believe, also costed.

We heard in the Chamber today a number of accusations from both sides claiming that members on one side of the House have done one thing and the other side has not. That is politics. When we want to progress important, meaningful and controversial reform—something I have had some experience with—that type of politics does not help the outcome. Consensus building, based on evidence, is how we get a result. My approach to this reform will be to work with the new Government, to work with my crossbench colleagues and to work with the Opposition to make sure that in this term of government we finally address problem gambling, and that we finally address the elements of organised crime that on a regular basis today will be laundering money in clubs and pubs across New South Wales.

This is something that New South Wales, as a State that is often considered to be the law and order State, needs to finally be honest about and finally take seriously. As I said, I am grateful for the focus of the former Coalition Government, but let me put those members at ease: The new Government is taking this seriously. The new Minister is taking this seriously. I want to ensure the Government's trial is a complete success. I want to ensure we have cashless gaming in New South Wales well before the Coalition's policy outlined. I think that is entirely possible.

Mr GREG WARREN (Campbelltown) (15:41:59):

My contribution to debate on the motion will be brief. I thank the member for North Shore for bringing this very important and topical public policy issue to the House. I also acknowledge my colleague the Minister and the Premier for their commitment to ensuring this matter is addressed in a sensible manner that does not impose upon the entire industry potential ramifications which may impact upon many workers and community groups. The member for Sydney is right. I acknowledge that one thing he can never be blamed for is not being passionate. He is like a dog with a bone. This is his new bone and he is running with it. Good on him. I know that professionally and personally this issue is important to him.

I believe that the Minns Labor Government's approach of adopting a comprehensive suite of policies to address harms from poker machines and money laundering in New South Wales is the right approach at this time, from a trial perspective. We in the Labor Party and in the Labor Government believe that good government is all about implementing real change, but we have to do that by working in a constructive and collaborative manner with the whole range of stakeholders. The Minister knows that in relation to this matter, nothing is more topical than the need to engage with stakeholders to ensure they are listened to and considered. We must also be very aware of ensuring that any changes we make are implemented constructively to provide a solution and find the balance. That is why I support the amendment moved by the Minister. We know that any change must be sensible, proportionate and evidence‑based. We can adopt a proactive approach, but it is also very important that the approach is collaborative and that it achieves the outcome we need.

With the support of industry stakeholders, 240 machines with cashless gaming technology are being trialled. As I said previously, engaging with industry in a constructive way will make the process of implementation and scaling up that process much easier and more effective. Soon the Government will announce the independent panel to oversee the trial, including implementation, monitoring and evaluation. We want to make sure the trial is successful at reducing the gambling harms and money laundering mentioned by the member for Sydney. Furthermore, the solutions to those problems, such as a cashless gaming trial, will work only if supported by a range of other measures to help with the longer-term transition to a cashless gaming environment. I emphasise that a collaborative approach is so important.

The Government already is considering implementing other measures, including reducing cash feed‑in limits to $500 for all new gaming machines. We will also be reducing the overall number of gaming machines in New South Wales. We want to implement a set of evidence‑based policies to address gambling‑related harms and money laundering from poker machines in New South Wales. As I previously noted, the Government will work constructively with all members of this House: the Opposition, the crossbench and anyone who is willing to work constructively to achieve the best possible outcome. That is so important, and that is precisely what the Minister and the Government will do.

TEMPORARY SPEAKER (Mr Clayton Barr):

There is too much audible conversation. Members will please move their conversations outside the Chamber or whisper in the spirit of whispering, which is quietly.

Ms JENNY LEONG (Newtown) (15:46:25):

On behalf of The Greens I speak in debate on the motion moved by the member for North Shore, and I wish to raise significant concerns about this debate. It appears we have gone from discussing the serious harms of gambling, poker machines and money laundering to a political point-scoring exercise between the Government and the Opposition. It has become a contest of who we are commending, who we are condemning and who we are moving on. Instead, we ought to be recognising that we have a responsibility to act to address gambling harm and money laundering. From that point of view, I thank the member for North Shore for putting the issue of poker machine reform on the agenda and allowing members to have this debate. It is critical for members to examine the impact of gambling harm. In keeping with the comments of the member for North Shore about focusing on the main game of reform, I will move a Greens amendment that will seek bring us all together, instead of scoring political points, to recognise that all members of this House have a responsibility to act. I move:

That the amendment of Mr Harris be amended by omitting all words after "That" and inserting instead "this House recognises that every Member in the Parliament has a responsibility to act to end gambling harm and money laundering."

It is the view of The Greens that we must work through this problem to address all of the pressures and influence that we have seen from the clubs industry, the gambling industry, organised crime and money laundering. We have seen how gambling harm preys on our communities and how it corrupts our politics. I am proud to be a member of The Greens, which is the only political party represented in this place that does not take corporate donations or donations from gambling or the clubs industry. But the reality is that the gambling industry continues to wreak ongoing damage on our communities while reaping massive profits from poker machines and an enormous personal toll is taken on individuals and families who are experiencing profound financial stress.

Over the past 30 years, poker machines have taken $135 billion from people in New South Wales. The machines are designed to draw people in and addict them, and the families that can least afford it are being hardest hit by the pain. The Greens and the other crossbench members are clear on this. It seems that every member in the Chamber sees clearly that we must act to address the harm that is being caused by pokies in our communities. Through our willingness to act, we can demonstrate that we are not addicted to political point‑scoring in the way so many in our communities are addicted to poker machines. We can demonstrate that here and now by taking responsibility for ending gambling harm and money laundering. The Greens want to see a whole lot more. I recognise that the member for Murray is in the Chamber.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Clayton Barr):

Order! There is too much audible conversation in the Chamber.

Ms JENNY LEONG:

The member for Murray has made a significant commitment to reform, as have many members on the crossbench. The member for Sydney, like The Greens, has made an absolute commitment to reform in this space. The Greens want the introduction of a cashless gambling card. We want pubs and clubs to pay for the harm they cause with pokies. We want to phase out poker machines in pubs within five years and in clubs within 10 years. The Greens are committed to mandatory statewide cashless gambling cards in all pubs and clubs. We need to reduce gambling harm in so many ways. This is not the time to score political points and create division; it is time to show unity. All members in this place have the responsibility to act when it comes to ending gambling harm and money laundering.

Ms JULIA FINN (Granville) (15:50:33):

I am proud to be part of a Minns Labor government that is already implementing a comprehensive set of policies to address the harms of gambling and money laundering associated with poker machine use in New South Wales. I note the comment of the member for Sydney that the Government is taking this seriously. We consulted many different groups, including industry groups, unions, harm minimisation groups and charities, to develop these comprehensive, holistic and targeted policies. We have worked hard to ensure that our policies deliver for the people of New South Wales, particularly in protecting jobs and supporting workers.

Over 137,000 people in the State are employed across clubs, hotels, pubs and casinos. They do important work and provide services that the majority of people enjoy using safely. In my community, local pubs and clubs support charities, sporting clubs and community organisations and schools. Local pubs and clubs support many young people to get their first job out of high school or support them while they undertake further study at TAFE and university. That is why the policies announced by the Government to address gambling harms are important for workers.

The Government will not just implement an evidence-based trial to test cashless gaming systems and see how they work in practice; it will also introduce a responsible gaming officer for venues with more than 20 machines. This will provide workers with the opportunity to do more advanced training to support patrons who may be at risk of gambling harm. I know many of my local clubs already proactively approach patrons whose gambling is getting out of control to offer support. The Government will expand the self-exclusion register to the whole State and look at third-party exclusion processes. It will consider facial recognition technology in pubs and clubs to ensure that patrons who are banned from venues are not allowed in. These policies will help workers in pubs and clubs to manage and support those in the community who are at high risk of experiencing harm from gambling behaviours.

The policies will also directly address issues such as money laundering of the proceeds of crime. Compare this to 12 years of inaction from those opposite. We could see these problems unfolding. It was not until the Crime Commission issued its report that members opposite began talking about taking action—but they did not implement anything. This Government is implementing serious reforms. All members want action to reduce gambling harms and money laundering in this State, but only Labor has developed policies that will achieve these two goals while also supporting workers and jobs, and only Labor is implementing those policies.

Mrs HELEN DALTON (Murray) (15:53:32):

By leave: I make a small contribution to debate on the motion. I thank the member for North Shore for moving the motion. There will be a lot of debate on this and we need to get on with it. The New South Wales Crime Commission has identified money laundering as occurring within the State. It is certainly occurring within my electorate and there is no secret about that. The cashless gaming card has been introduced in Norway. Limits were set and 99.6 per cent of people have kept within them. The limits work to limit harm and money laundering. The system works well in Norway.

I urge the Minns Government to immediately introduce the cashless gaming card. I have heard about the Government's plan. It needs to get on with the plan as quickly as possible. As I said last night, $185 million is lost to poker machines in the electorate of Murray. There are 90,000 poker machines throughout the State—far too many. Governments are also hooked on gambling as they clip the ticket. We need to expedite reform and I urge the Minns Government to do that. We need to minimise the harm and organised crime. Right now, kids are hungry and there is domestic violence, high suicide rates and financial ruin. We need to get on with the job as quickly as possible.

Mr JAMES GRIFFIN (Manly) (15:55:29):

By leave: If there was ever an issue that transcended politics, I think this is it, as evidenced by the diversity of speakers from the crossbench, The Greens, the Government and the Opposition. For that reason, I ask all members to think deeply about what it is that they do not agree with in the Crime Commission report recommendations. As we speak, there are people in all of our communities feeding hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars through poker machines. At the same time there are criminals laundering money in the pubs and clubs that we all love and enjoy spending time in. As the member for Murray just mentioned, urgency is the question.

I ask members to consider what part of the policy platform the Coalition took to the election they do not agree with. Is it supporting the Crime Commission report recommendations; introducing cashless gaming in all New South Wales venues; or legislating a date for a full transition to cashless gaming? Is it requiring that all new machines purchased once the rollout commences be cashless? Is it enabling player identity verification linked to a single bank account; banning political donations from pubs and clubs; or the buyback scheme targeted to acquire 2,000 machines over five years? Is it the $500 load limit? Is it ensuring funds for gaming come from one bank account rather than allowing credit to be used; or implementing a statewide self-exclusion register with third-party exclusion?

Perhaps members do not support mandating breaks in play; or the prohibition of the use of external signage; or ensuring personal player data can only be used for law enforcement, government and commercial purposes; or legislating player privacy protections for all system-generated data? This is an insidious problem. It is one of the biggest issues to confront members of Parliament, no matter what part of the State we represent. As members from both sides have said, urgency is required. I put it to the Government that it is time to get on with smashing problem gambling and the devastation and destruction it causes in homes right across New South Wales. I commend the member for North Shore for moving the motion.

Debate adjourned.